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TRANSCRIPT
Brendan Torazzi
This is an ohs.com.au production Welcome to Episode 27 of the Australian Health and Safety Business Podcast. I'm Brendan Torazzi, the host of the show, and today I'm with Vince ball who is from the Construction Industry Training Council. I got that right. Yeah, that's fine. CITC for sure. That's it. So we're Ron, we're sitting in the WorkSafe AACT offices at the moment, can you just explain the role that CIT C has in Canberra,
Unknown Speaker
we are the overarching industry body that looks at all the training and professional development for the construction industry in the ACD. And surrounding region. Basically, the peak body, were one of the few remaining eye tabs, which was the Industry Training advisory bodies that have diminished across all industries. And I think we're the only remaining one left in the country.
Brendan Torazzi
Oh, wow. Okay, so what I guess what I know, you fall, or how I've met you, as is the father of the course, and asbestos awareness, which was one of the I guess, it's probably been the most successful, nationally recognized asbestos awareness course to be launched in the country. How did that come about? What was the idea behind that?
Unknown Speaker
The idea of that I'm a plumber, drainer, and gas fitter by trade, and certainly been involved with asbestos, all my life and knew nothing about it, of course, in those days. But what happened was, back in about 2012, there was an incident at line on playing fields where someone dug up some asbestos happened to be a civil operator, young, two young guys, actually. And then it hit the news. I happened to be having a coffee with the work Safety Commissioner. And I say, Do you know one day someone will sue you. And he said, why I said, because I think you presume that anyone that works in construction can identify the wide range of asbestos materials. And that started the conversation, because there was a presumption that anyone that worked in the industry would be able to identify it. The other thing that was happening in parallel, there was a number of national units of competency being developed for removal, supervision, at cetera, et cetera. But none of them touched on being able to identify it was just a presumption that you knew what it was and how you could identify it. So that really started the conversation with WorkSafe. And he said, What can you do? And I said, well, we need to write a course where people can identify, make an informed decision and be able to report it to the appropriate, either person or body. And that's, that's where it started from the commissioner said, well, we'll let let's go with this. Because that's what's what's needed.
Brendan Torazzi
And so how long did that take to develop the course?
Unknown Speaker
It took over 12 months, but a lot of that was to do with industry consultation, and being the body that is the industry, we're in a good position to bring all relevant stakeholders together and have that conversation and have our arguments and, and come out with what industry could deal with. And it was always going to be a four hour face to face course.
Brendan Torazzi
But you've sort of gone one step beyond that, in that you actually got it enshrined in legislation that it was a mandatory course. That to me is incredible, that you were able to do that in such a short amount of time. Like, how just walk us through that process what what was involved with tight, you know, you've come up with this idea you've seen seen the asbestos dug up, you've had the conversation, you've done the industry consultation, but then you've gone one step thought forward and made it mandatory.
Unknown Speaker
Yep. I think the issues in the ICT it was probably a little bit easier because the ICT is a bit like a big country down. Yeah. industry supported it, all sides of industry and, and my organization is a tripartite a true tripartite organization with employers and employees. representatives on on that council, they could see the value of it. But it wasn't about the removal touch or anything else. The other thing that was agreed is that if we develop a course we would get it registered and accredited through ESCWA. And whoever delivered the course would be given all the resources. So we got national consistency, not only local, but if they want to take it nationally, they could do so. But they would be provided with all the resources.
Brendan Torazzi
That way, you've got a baseline of the quality of the course being delivered.
Unknown Speaker
But everyone's being taught really the same course, nationally. Yep. One of the provisos we did have for RTOs that we're delivering in other jurisdictions, and as mandated, mandated within the Corps is that they must pick up the relevant legislation and provide to their participants or students as part of this course.
Brendan Torazzi
Yep. And I guess it helped, having around about that time having the WHS act, you know, more or less been harmonized across across the different states?
Unknown Speaker
Yep. Well, at that stage to there was something like 124 courses in asbestos awareness. Wow. That none accredited through ESCWA ik, okay, so the value of the course, and we always recognized that would be that it needed to be legislated in some form. We were supported, and we were working closely with WorkSafe at that particular stage. So but the whole of industry and the regulator's couldn't see the value in going down that path. Yeah. The difficulty for the regulators in displays from a work health and safety aspect. It also had connotations for the building act. Right? Okay. And we were driving it from was little, this is fine to have something like this. But we also had within the building code removal of less than 10 square meters of asbestos. And we're saying this is about being able to identifying and report it. And we saw the removal of that from the building act in the AC T. And the legislators saw that as well. So they actually removed it. And we developed all the resources. But it was a very, very consultative process, I was lucky enough to write them all. And I was a former auditor of RTOS, prior to Aska. So I knew what RTOS compliance was, was about as well. And I've also written training packages in the early days. But we got the result that we've we were seeking. And I think in the first 18 months, we had 16,000 people trained in the ICT. And
Brendan Torazzi
that's amazing. That's amazing. And so the legislation change and the writing of the resources and industry consultation, was that happening at the same time? Or did you sort of finish the industry consultation part and then move on to get legislation changed our look,
Unknown Speaker
we were always recognized an industry recognized it wouldn't be successful without that legislative enforcement. If you hike or
Brendan Torazzi
change. There's got to be a driver to actually make people do it.
Unknown Speaker
Absolutely. Even though industry wanted to the driving force was always going to be the legislation that make made it mandated it. So in the AC t, you need a white card, and you need your asbestos awareness coat.
Brendan Torazzi
Yep. And so that I mean, that in itself would have been a massive education process in the early days, I'd imagine. Oh, yes,
Unknown Speaker
yes. But people were generally comfortable with it. I think industry were comfortable because everyone was getting trained in in the same vein. Yep. And it was the same course for everyone. And people really embraced it. For RTOS, there was a very rigorous exercise for RTOs to be granted approval to deliver. In the early days, it was a license. The course was copyrighted and owned by the CITC. But when the legislation came in, we were approached by the ICT government to transfer the whole kitten caboodle across to them. Our council said no. No, it wasn't about that. It was a handing because of the rigor and the monitoring of of the course and we were getting the right outcomes for industry and for the individuals. We didn't want it to go to, to a government entity. But what we agreed to was to transfer it lock stock and barrel to the office of the Work Health and Safety Commissioner who had certain powers outside of government. And I think that's the same in every jurisdiction anyway. Yep. So that's where it was transferred to where the people see it being transferred to the ICT gambling or not, that's fine. As a body and an entity, we see it as being owned by the Office of the work Safety Commissioner, and we still hold that position about and but
Brendan Torazzi
your CRTC still is still running it was administering, administering the,
Unknown Speaker
yeah, what what happened was it went across to them, and then it went to what was called Access Canberra to manage all that. And sort of, we kept the close eye on it, but everything kept coming back to us with complaints or issues or anything else. So after a 12 month period, it came back to work safe AC T, and WorkSafe. AC T went down the process and has engaged us to do all the management for them on this. So we work very, very closely with with WorkSafe. And we have more of a management role in ensuring compliance with every aspect of that. Yeah. And part of our role is really to look after the interests of the work Safety Commissioner I'm and because it is registered with ESCWA, there's certain obligations from WorkSafe. And particularly the work Safety Commissioner as the owner of this program with ESCWA. My role for the CIT C is to make sure that all those compliance issues are addressed not only for a compliance exercise with ESCWA, but also to maintain that the program maintains its high quality.
Brendan Torazzi
Yep. Yep. It sounds like a challenging at times, so managed to balance all of those interests. And and so it's been running now for what was it 2013 That it was March, so six years, you're in your your second license, is because it was at a five year license with Asperger's.
Unknown Speaker
The accreditation period was five years. Yeah. We then went through the upgrade and renewal process.
Brendan Torazzi
Because I changed codes didn't it? It was 10 Three, one for NAT to start with and went to 10. Seven, five net? Yep. All those numbers swimming around my
Unknown Speaker
numbers actually come from ask from us. Yes. But that they were exceptionally good right through this process. I was fortunate because I did have a number of contacts within Esper. And that always makes it easy when they understand the process for an RTO to be approved to deliver this. They, each RTO must go through a rigorous audit process prior to the ESCWA audit, as well. We're familiar with this. And still are, even though there's some change of personnel and some new RTOS have still got to go through the ESCWA. But we still work very closely with ASCO to maintain the integrity of discourse.
Brendan Torazzi
So I'm curious to hear your thoughts about other parts of the country where the training isn't mandatory? Is there been certain sectors that I know there's been interest from, you know, say local councils or other government departments? Are there any other sort of industries that you've seen a bit of a trend in? Where they prefer to do the nationally recognized asbestos awareness as opposed to say, I don't know just a course that has nothing attached to it?
Unknown Speaker
Man, most of the organization's one nationally accredited course. A lot of the RTOS do deliver it nationally. It's quite surprising how many courses and how many numbers are out there that have been half a certificate in this. Wow. Queensland is quite big. Yeah. New South Wales is very surprising how many are being trained near South Australia's exactly the same. Now in Victoria, the CFMEU in Victoria, are approved to deliver it so they certainly deliver it to as part of their training regime.
Brendan Torazzi
And it's not just people coming to work in Canberra, of course, it's people that actually want the national benchmark.
Unknown Speaker
Oh yeah. salutely Yeah, absolutely. And it's quite surprising. I've had feedback from TAs and organizations, that particular organization has mandated for all their staff in another jurisdiction. And seen it was mandated the very senior manager, director of the company had to attend. Yep. And who was very well qualified in engineering, etc, etc. came back and said, This is the best course that I've ever done. Oh, great. So that was that was a bit of a highlight. For me personally.
Brendan Torazzi
So So from 2012, when you had that, like the first conversation, the asbestos has been dug up in the in the field, did you have any idea that it would, you know, be go on to become so successful?
Unknown Speaker
No, not at all. Not at all. But from from a personal perspective, it was always something that from my background in asbestos, I believe that everyone should be able to have be able to identify it. And from that, take the relevant actions that they need to, to address it, whether it's a do it yourselfer. The sad part is asbestos is in so many different products and label don't understand or don't understand the consequences of a bonded sheet. But what happens when you break that bondage sheet, if particularly if it's old, then becomes friable. So they don't understand all the potential consequences? Not necessarily for themselves, but for the people around them are in the vicinity of that. So, you know, for me, it was a particular passion that that people at least can identify in making, and then make an informed decision. If it's wrong, it's wrong. But at least they've got something to report or make a decision on.
Brendan Torazzi
Yep. And so from I guess, from my observation legislation is really tricky to pass through. Parliament. What What's your views on the other other jurisdictions around the country? Do you think that they're going to eventually take I think that you mentioned the CPCC units, which are all about the Remove non friable asbestos, I think that took seven years to get through. So I'm just curious to see whether you know, there's murmurings I've spoken to other regulators that are pretty keen to get it in. Other what are the challenges? Do you think for some of the other sites? Look,
Unknown Speaker
God, I think the challenge is probably poor politics than, than anything else, and then the real will to do it. Yeah. And we were fortunate in in the ICT, we had a bit of a groundswell for that to happen. And that was, I would put down a lot to to our tripartite organization that have so many company directors on it, as well as employee organizations on it. And they're all working as one. And the benefit was everyone realized that if you don't regulate it, you're not going to get maximum benefit and maximum maximum out come from it. Yeah. And I do know, various ministers that get COAG still talk about this. And they are pretty proud of what we've achieved in the ICT, particularly with this course. Because it does lead on to other things. People are aware of it, people can make an informed decision and act accordingly.
Brendan Torazzi
And so it was we were talking about the 10 square meter rule before we started recording. So that's probably a big thing that would need to be removed from a lot of the other states,
Unknown Speaker
I think to make to make it the most effective way of addressing issues like this is the 10 square meters rule. Because we all know, a lot of industry will remove 10 square meters before morning to 10 square meters after more than eight. Yeah. And they'll lose our house within the day. Yeah. Yeah. And still play within in what day judge as the rule. Yep. Yeah. If you remove it, you remove. Yeah, yeah. So there's no option when it comes to that quantity of asbestos. They should be licensed asbestos removal just to remove it.
Brendan Torazzi
I thought we'd just before we wrap up, I thought we would just briefly touch on the other course, which has recently become mandatory in Canberra, or ICT rather, the working with asbestos containing materials? Yep. What's that all about? Is that riding on your coattails or
Unknown Speaker
look that that was originally part two of the asbestos awareness? Okay. Because would I certainly recognize looking at the National units there wasn't provision there for or people that actually did maintenance, or people that even put up curtains and blinds, they drill into it every day. So we had a gap in the training and awareness for those people. So in when we did this one, we certainly looked at how could we address this. And a lot of it was to do with electrical and plumbing. So, actually proposed, we did some initial work on this over about a 12 month period. And then I proposed to the electrical itab At that stage that it would be beneficial if they took ownership of that. So I said on the original committee, and still sit on the committee that oversee that one as well. But it's specifically designed for this, let's say maintenance, people that do this every day. Now, the reason that we all continually talk about change, and how we introduce change, and change behavior and modification, and my thinking is, if employers at least can have the equipment in advance to do this, it'll progressively change the way people will, will attack the maintenance and actually protect the consumer more than them. Because there's specific tools you use when you're working with a staff. If they've got it in advance, at least they're going to bring it out and use it. So that's part of the thinking with that it's now being introduced in the ICT it is being administered by by the electrical component and sector of the industry.
Brendan Torazzi
Energies Skills Council is known as E Rs I think,
Unknown Speaker
is Bob Taylor, and I've known Bob for years and years and years. So Bob's overseeing that and he's looking at it from a national perspective. It's run differently and managed differently than this one and but there's different rules that apply to that sector of the industry anyway, so it fits quite neatly with with Bob and, and his group.
Brendan Torazzi
Okay, great. Now, I've just got five very short questions to ask before we wrap up, Vince. I hope I don't put you too much on the spot. And what do you do I know you're very active. workwise Do you do anything else? Like as far as to keep fit? Or?
Unknown Speaker
Yep, I play play golf about once once a fortnight. walk every morning before work? And got grandkids grandkids in sports? Very?
Brendan Torazzi
Yeah. plenty,
Unknown Speaker
plenty to keep your labor I need to keep my mind and body healthy for
Brendan Torazzi
how many hours sleep you're getting each night.
Unknown Speaker
It's interesting, because my first four hours are fantastic. I just go to bed and I go to sleep. Yep. Then I might wake up and then have probably six.
Brendan Torazzi
Okay. Okay. And then do you have any personal goals that you're looking to achieve in the next 12 months?
Unknown Speaker
Probably making the CITC. That's a tough question. I suppose I haven't got I've never been a person to set
Brendan Torazzi
goals. Yeah. Okay.
Unknown Speaker
Well, I think life's a journey. Yep. And opportunities come up. Yep. And, and you can't plan for a lot of the opportunities to come up. So you've got to make up your mind on the spot, whether you're going to take that opportunity or decline it
Brendan Torazzi
Okeydoke. And then the last question I wanted to ask you is what would you what would you like to be most remembered for? As your contribution? workwise?
Unknown Speaker
I have two actually. Okay. One is certainly this asbestos cost. Yep. And where it's gone as part of the journey. Yep. And the other one was some 17 years ago, I introduced the kids at risk program. That's probably been one of the most successful in the country, and that's for kids in year 10. School, taking them and introducing them into the construction industry. But the objective was not for them to work in the construction industry, but it was to give them an incentive to complete year 10. Okay, so that's, that's probably the two. That's amazing to me, and I still engage with disadvantaged kids.
Brendan Torazzi
Yep. Okay, so if people want to find out a little bit more about the asbestos awareness course, where would you direct them? Where would be the like online? Would they just Google the 10 Six seven
Unknown Speaker
course. That would probably take them to the Asquith sight, but certainly on the ICT WorkSafe website. Yeah, certainly it's on a little bit of is on our website. Yep. Someone hacked that about we've got to pack up now and we were upgrading at all. So certainly get info on that. But ICT WorkSafe website has a comprehensive and then anyone who's interested is an RTO in delivering it. There's a process that they've got to go through there.
Brendan Torazzi
That's great. Okay, Vince. Well, thanks very much for coming on the show.
Unknown Speaker
Thank you.