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TRANSCRIPT
Brendan Torazzi
This is an ohs.com.au production Welcome to Episode 28 of the Australian Health and Safety Business Podcast. I'm Brendan Torazzi, the host of the show and today I'm joined from with Bob Alford, who is the director of operations for WorkSafe. ACTA. Good morning, Bob, how are you?
Unknown Speaker
Good. Very good. Thanks, Brendan,
Brendan Torazzi
thank you for agreeing to take some time out of your day to explain what your role is with WorkSafe AACT. Yeah, that's fine. How long have you? How long have you been working with
Unknown Speaker
WorkSafe ICT just over five years now.
Brendan Torazzi
Okay, and what was the journey to get into this role
Unknown Speaker
to work health and safety. I come from construction and real industry background, in my early years, as you know, working career and then I joined the New South Wales Police Force. And I became heavily involved in work health and safety as a weapons instructor. Okay. And also emergency incident emergency management responses for all emergency services in New South Wales working with, you know, the lots of SES, fire brigade, national parks, of course, have ambulance services. And so I became very passionate about work health and safety. And in particularly, as a range master in Taser instructor in defensive tactics, with the troops, new recruits from new recruits all the way through to experienced police officers, including commanders, and roads by training. And I was instrumental in developing some of those safety management systems that we had to put in place in relation to some of those key areas in in that in that domain, you know, particularly with defensive tactics and how we respond to incidents, to try and keep the troops or the police as safe as possible in the community, of course, in that trans transgressed into me, traditional transitioning across to work health and safety. And I saw this opportunity to come and join WorkSafe ICT and I swapped my roles and my careers. And here I am. And I've enjoyed it thoroughly enjoyed it all the way along and being involved in stakeholder engagement with, you know, not just the construction industry, but all industries out there and government directorates working in with employee representative groups and the unions to try and get that key objective to increase have greater awareness of safety outcomes through work health and safety in the workplace.
Brendan Torazzi
And so in that in that previous role was that, like a lot of it sounds like it's very practical. You're training people on also how to use tasers and other weapons.
Unknown Speaker
Yep. Yeah, so it was a lot of hands on training with the troops. But in behind the, behind the, the the training was a lot of administrative work and a lot of foundation work in actually how to do all that training in a safe manner. And the administrative controls that we had to implement, you know, not only through our peak body at the police academy in the weapons training unit head office in Sydney, but we had to make sure that our local issues for Work, Health and Safety were incorporated into that. Because you know, from one day, you could be at an indoor range, like at the police academy or up in Sydney, and the next day, you're out in the sheep paddock at the at the back of barrydale on a live shooting range with your police. So our scope and areas of work, health and safety had to change considerably.
Brendan Torazzi
And so you were training ACTA in New South Wales, or was it national
Unknown Speaker
or not just the New South Wales Police Force?
Brendan Torazzi
Okay. Okay. Fantastic. And so, what is the day in the life of an Operations Director at WorkSafe? ICT? Like I must admit, it must be very varied I, I would imagine.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. So the variety of work very much the same as what I experienced as a police officer, but there's no two days are the same. Yep. There's lots of inquiries that come through me directly, or through my staff to bring up issues from industry, key stakeholders that want to discuss, you know, a particular issue they might actually have with how to implement a safety system on site, what they should have been, you know, lock swims, or do a lot of swims, seminars at the moment. We run one every six weeks to try and get people to understand what a swim is all about.
Brendan Torazzi
Is that is that a face to face session? Or? Yeah, yeah. Yep.
Unknown Speaker
So they've been well attended at the moment. In fact, Vince ball that was just on previously was he's there with me as well. And he introduces the topic to the the audience and then I just take over and give everyone the regular regulators perspective on how swim should work and safety management systems generally has been including risk assessments and JSA is and what have you. So
Brendan Torazzi
what parts of industry are coming along to that? Is it mainly construction industry, or do you get?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, it's mainly construction because you got to Remember, it's high risk construction work only. And there's only 18 key components that are listed in the regulation. And some of the issues that we actually have at the moment is industry are going outside that. And they're actually listing activities that are not high risk in their swims. And that makes the swim a document that becomes far too big. It's, you know, you're getting 20 3040 Page swim slips, sometimes even more. They're not practical. They're not getting the key message across to the workers when they get toolbox into the actual activity that they're doing on the day. And we're trying to keep them down to that three or four pages. So it's hitting the key notes about what it is you're going to be doing today. And what you need to be aware of, and how you're actually going to implement your controls to make sure everyone works safely in that high risk active insert.
Brendan Torazzi
So there's basically just 18 areas that they need to focus on. Yep. Okay. And so that probably, is a nice trends, question into the HSR training, which is there's been some changes in Canberra another first, or one of the first, I guess, around the country as of late. What's happened in that the health and safety reps? There was a change with the construction industry with projects over $5 million. It became mandatory.
Unknown Speaker
Yes, that's Yeah, that's right. So the amendment bill was passed, and enacted in June last year, and it came into effect on the first of January this year. So any project that is costed at more than $5 million. Other than a single dwelling project, single dwelling projects are not included, but in a lot of townhouse project, apartments or any large construction, be it residential, commercial, what have you, including major civil engineering works, where it might be roadworks or whatever. Where it exceeds that $5 million. The legislation has now mandated that there's consultation between eligible unions and the principal contractor to formulate the establishment of working groups in the safety space, Health Safety Committee, and also representation for the workers in terms of health safety representatives, or the deputy HSRs as well, as they know. And so working together with industry, the unions, they negotiate what the working groups going to look like, and how many HS ours are going to have. And of course, as we know, a large scale construction project, you know, it started as a greenfield site. From day one, they start excavating with civil engineering works and they dig down under the ground, they set the basement. And then as it gradually comes out of the ground, the dynamics of the the construction project obviously changes so much that there's obviously time to for unions and the principal contractor to look at variations or forecasts or variations of how our working groups may actually expand or retract as the project goes from, you know, that heavy machinery right through to the finishing trades to finish off the final product.
Brendan Torazzi
And what was the driver for making these changes? Like was there any was there one single thing that happened? Or is it just a gradual process that?
Unknown Speaker
No, I don't think there was a single thing. I think one of the big drivers was the it was identified that saw on some major projects where the construction is quite large that perhaps there wasn't enough oversight or regulation to ensure that the working groups and the HSRs were adequately implemented and incorporated into the project to ensure that the reporting of work health and safe work or safety issues on the site, were brought up in proper forums and immediately dealt with, in in, in some instances, principal contractors. Whilst they may have actually had, you know, some sort of representation on site, he was probably a little bit disjointed. Sometimes there might only be one person representing all the workers, and that that workers away for a day for whatever reason, and something needs to be reported or they might be on leave for a week became a single point of failure because no one knew who to go to. Right. It just brings about a better structure in the workplace, in consultation with the unions as well, so that they they can see that their members and other workers on the site have been adequately protected with work health and safety issues that when they arise and things are dealt with at at the earliest opportunity.
Brendan Torazzi
So have you seen out in the field, a few changes happening now? Like I guess all the all the construction companies are needing to put their staff or whoever's elected on the HR as HSR. I would need to put them through training if they're not already trained.
Unknown Speaker
Yes. So we are seeing that has been occurring, but obviously the new component that is requires the new training is having someone go off and do a very short course on how to be a person as a representative I'm on the Health Safety Committee, the HSE. Because that's a new, really new component, the HSR train has always been there that four day course, as it's been mandated so and
Brendan Torazzi
gives it four days, or five days or
Unknown Speaker
five days. Yeah. And the other the HSE trainees only a very short course. And that just puts the person through the roles and the function of what they should be doing on the committee and how the committee should operate.
Brendan Torazzi
And is there a prescribed length of time for the HSE course, that the committee goes?
Unknown Speaker
Or it should be? Well, it's only a day out of the person's Yeah. Working calendar. And it's, I'm not sure how many RTOS are actually delivering it at the moment, but it's usually about half a day in duration. So you, I mean, when you actually calculate for industry, I guess when they calculate this, I will say a day off the job. Yes, four hours off, it's a day off the job. But yeah, so it's about a four hour duration course, maybe a bit
Brendan Torazzi
longer. And so that that new requirement is that's different from the January 1. Amendment, or was that all wrapped up? In that?
Unknown Speaker
That's, that's all part of the new amendment. So the formation of the Health Safety Committee is all part of the new amendment. Okay, so we actually mandates that we actually have a committee formed on those larger construction sites with HSR representations. And that's probably a key component to the, to the new legislation.
Brendan Torazzi
Okay, and how many committee members? Is that need to be? Or does it depend on the size of the project?
Unknown Speaker
It depends on the size of the project. There may actually be more than one committee. Yeah, they, you know, you may actually have, you know, depending on the size of the project you could have in negotiation between the principal contractors in the workers, and the unions, you know, numerous working groups, across the entire project depends on the size of the project, of course, and the establishment of those safety committees, you know, come together at some point, and they have a central point where they discuss all those health and safety issues that are occurring on the site at the time.
Brendan Torazzi
And so for companies that, I guess, fall into this area, they're construction companies, how do they report that they've done the training? Or is it just more you need to do it? And then if something happens, and you haven't done it, then then there's a problem? Yeah. So or a non compliance? I should say,
Unknown Speaker
Well, yeah, the there is a timeframe of around about two months, after the work commences, that you actually have to form the committee, then you've got a period of time to then even if someone's nominated as the HSR. And they've haven't done that training, there's a period of time for them to actually get themselves organized to actually often do that training. So there is a period of time. It's usually within three months, yeah, for the HSR to be allowed and allocated the time to go and do that training. So after, say, you know, that three month period, then we, as a regulator, we say, well, how come the person hasn't done the training yet? Particularly at the moment, but with HSRs and Eva deputy, he has sort of done the training, we're finding that they've already got HSR. So they've done the training. Yeah, usually the people that are interested in doing the, the role, and they're the ones that have been nominated at this stage. And I mean, the training lasts for a period of three years before they have to do the refresher. Yeah. So it's
Brendan Torazzi
just getting that initial five day course done. Yep. And then it's a one day refresher. Yep. Every three years, so yep. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
Okay. So, and the principal contractor is responsible for the costs based upon, you know, if it's a subcontractor that has a HSR. So the HSR training is cost is that responsibility of the principal contractor and any other reasonable costs associated with having that person attend the training?
Brendan Torazzi
I know, the AC t also have a training fund in place. So I'm not sure if it is the case. But potentially, they might be able to claim back some of the costs through the training fund.
Unknown Speaker
Yes, that's, that potentially can happen. And the best way to organize or to find out those arrangements, is Vince will actually go through the CITC. Vince would be able to point people in the right direction to the answers across all that. So he's
Brendan Torazzi
the connector. Yes. He knows where to go. That's excellent. And so what are some of the other issues that you're seeing are not issues, but what are some of the other trends that you're seeing out? In the I guess, in in real life at the moment in the ICT,
Unknown Speaker
I guess moving away from HSR. We've mandated as as the first of July this year, that requirement for certain occupations, in particularly the construction industry, but it does cover some other occupations as well. working safely with asbestos course has now been mandated. That's been on Going since early this year with workers been put through the courses, the feedback from the RTOS is they're fully booked right up until towards the end of the year, and they're forecasting right through to early next year before they actually get to a point where they can actually start backing off the amount. Of course, yeah, of course, has been run. So that's a big, big issue. And, you know, the, the industry itself is, are asking questions in relation to why we're doing the training. And it's imperative that while we have mandated asbestos awareness training here in the ICT, it's about the actual dealing and working with the product, using power tools, and then you know, drilling into it, for example. And whilst the old the techniques of using you know, shaving foam in a, in a Styrofoam cup, putting it over and then drilling through it or using Vaseline works on the outside, but then what happens to the asbestos fibers that move on to the inside, and then at a later date, another trades person, or worker comes along and has to remove that panel, and then there's exposure to asbestos fibers. So that's the really the getting people to start thinking about how to implement control measures to make sure that they adequately control not just what's in front of them, but what's going on behind the wall as well. So and it just gives a greater awareness to the trace people out there that are working with it. And gives them further ideas about you know, what can be implemented to minimize the risk to themselves, and obviously, other workers in the course, when they go home? If they haven't got the fibers on, and you know, the loved ones come up and give them a cuddle or hug the kids and that when they come home from work, they run minimizing the exposure to their family as well.
Brendan Torazzi
And so that subgroup it's like I think it was a plumbers, electricians,
Unknown Speaker
plumbers, electricians have been caught in it. Air conditioning workers. Yep, gas fitters. Obviously, anyone that generally finds themselves working with asbestos. Yeah. In the list is on our website. Yeah. I just can't name them all off the top of my head. And if they're not listed in that list, then they're not they're not required to do the course. Yeah. Right. So there are some trades that, you know, there was some discussion as to whether they should be required to do the course. But it's coming down the list. I think there's 10 occupations listed on that course.
Brendan Torazzi
Yep. Fair enough. And is there anything else upcoming on your radar that? Well, seems like it's been a pretty busy year for you?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. So we've had a busy year, we've had a number of serious incidents in just in the last couple of months. And you know, what my major investigations teams busy working away, resolving those issues and coming up with key improvements. And, you know, we had the, the young worker that fell 12 and a half meters from scaffold only a couple of weeks ago. Fortunately, he's going to be walking away pretty unscathed from that. So that's a fortunate result, luckily for him. So my investigations team is very, very busy. And I think the probably the key thing that we're doing at the moment is long with swim seminars in going out and discussing, you know, changes to legislation, such as HSR RS and working safely with asbestos because industry are asking for those little key seminars and forums. Is national safety month in October. We're gearing up for that's going to be very, very busy month for us. I think Canada is pretty packed already. Yeah. And we'll be going out there and engaging with government, industry unions, and with the workers and promoting work health and safety in the in the workplace.
Brendan Torazzi
It's, it sounds like you're incredibly active, just getting the message out there. I mean, that's education is really the key, isn't it? If people don't know about it, and
Unknown Speaker
yeah, and I think, you know, when when you look at what we've been doing, particularly with swims, people are still coming to us, and not knowing what exactly it is meant to be in the swims. They've been going off and dealing with, you know, getting work health and safety consultants to the to assist them. But they still don't understand what the document is about and how it's supposed to work in the workplace. So that's been a key message that we've been trying to drive because we had a very high non compliance rate. Since we've rolled out the swims, that compliance rate has improved significantly. And I'm seeing less of my inspectors coming to me, advising me that they're giving consideration to issue notices via infringement notice or prohibition improvement notices to people that are working with high risk construction work. And that's a that's a good indicator that what we're doing is working. Yeah, it's working in that area. So yeah, and we you know, we're going to start early next year working with industry on just doing small work groups and workshops that people They're interested in to come along and be guided through how to write a simple swims, you know how to how to prepare it and write it, you know, in very simple terms so that they saw it compliant with the regulation. And
Brendan Torazzi
it's also the foundation though, isn't it? Yeah, get those basic foundation pieces. Right, then everything flows on from there, hopefully in a safety point of view.
Unknown Speaker
Yep. Yeah. So I think it's been a confusing time for industry over quite a lot of few years, and principal contractors, where we're going to be talking with principal contractors to make sure that they are narrowing down the scope of what they require. And a swims. Obviously, they have, you know, safety management systems that they've got to work to work off safety management plan, because it's mandated that they have to have it, that the swim is just sitting underneath and support those management systems so that the workers understand each and every single day, they actually do a particular task, they understand what they're doing and how to do it safely without causing injury to themselves or others. And that's the key message that we're trying to get out there.
Brendan Torazzi
Now. That's excellent. I've just got five short questions to ask you. But before we wrap up, can I ask how old you are?
Unknown Speaker
53
Brendan Torazzi
I really wouldn't have I wouldn't have picked that. What do you like to do to get fit?
Unknown Speaker
I like to, I like to swim. Yep. And ride a push bike. I whenever I get the opportunity I've got on there. Shane Retton breeze horse and got went and salary sacrificed and the bike and I ride from Chisholm to Dixon. Back home. So that's a 50 Kilometer round trip for me.
Brendan Torazzi
So I do that is a pretty flat I would imagine.
Unknown Speaker
Most of it's pretty flat. There's a few hills in it. Being on an E bike bikes a bit easier to on the heels,
Brendan Torazzi
you're still still gets I've gotten a bike myself, and I find it's still get the heart rate up. And
Unknown Speaker
yeah, I'll get a good sweater. Yeah, and I've got a German ship and then she takes me for a walk.
Brendan Torazzi
That's, that's excellent. How many hours sleep you're getting each night?
Unknown Speaker
I aim for eight, but usually between seven and eight hours a night.
Brendan Torazzi
Okay. Do you have any personal goals you're looking to achieve in the next 12 months?
Unknown Speaker
No, other than hopefully, go to Tokyo for the Paralympic Games next
Brendan Torazzi
year. So you're saying yes, your son is competing? Well, he's,
Unknown Speaker
he's gonna try he went to 2016 Rio Paralympic Games, and hopefully things pan out for him. He might make the team again for Tokyo 2020. So that's my immediate Yep. Short term gold at the moment. Yep. If Joshy makes it, I'll be on the plane over to Japan, for sure.
Brendan Torazzi
Absolutely. And then finally, from a, I guess, a work or a career point of view, what would you like to be most remembered for?
Unknown Speaker
I think, you know, being you know, a person that's been able to engage with industry and government, in the unions as well to achieve better safety outcomes, particularly here in the ICT in in the workplace, and being one of those key contact points that industry can come to, and get the reliable information and assistance that they require. Through not only yourself but my team. And getting out there and just trying to make the workplace a better place not only to work in and safer, but you know, a really happy place.
Brendan Torazzi
Yep. Fantastic. So if people want to find out a little bit more about the work that WorkSafe AACT do, just Google that. You don't happen to know though the website.
Unknown Speaker
So we've got our websites under under redevelopment, but you can still get assigned if you just Google WorkSafe ICT. Yeah, it'll take you to the access Canberra website. Yep. And you'll see work health and safety on your WorkSafe. There's a lot of information on there. If you're registered with Eventbrite, or we, we will send out information on upcoming seminars, if you keep an eye on the Eventbrite website. And our industry liaison officer, Vicki Hagen, she sends out newsletters regularly. So if you go onto our website, you'll see the links to actually register for those newsletters, particularly the construction industry. And you'll get all the information that's going on with WorkSafe on an ongoing basis, at least monthly, and it'll actually outline what seminars are coming out what information sessions what we're doing in the month of October. And we will be out and about and obviously, really good place to find out about safety alerts. Yep. When an incident happens, we obviously analyze what's actually happened. We try and come up with a diagnosis of what actually occurred and how to remedy that problem. Excuse me. And those safety alerts are very, very important to get key messages out there the industry when something does happen so that they can actually just change maybe a procedure or practice or look at the other systems be at the plant or equipment or whatever. Yep. So that we don't actually have an reoccurrence of it.
Brendan Torazzi
Yep, fantastic. Okay, Bob. Well, thank you very much for coming on the show today.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. So no worries thanks