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TRANSCRIPT
Unknown Speaker
This is an ohs.com.au production
Brendan Torazzi
Welcome to Episode 52 of the Australian Health and Safety Business Podcast. I'm Brendan Torazzi, the host of the show, and today I'm joined with Karen Castle Don from work options. Good morning, Karen. How are you?
Unknown Speaker
Good morning. I'm well thank you Brendon.
Brendan Torazzi
Now I hear this is your first podcast. So hopefully, it'll be the first of many we love having female, you know, owners on the programme in health and safety. We need more of that. So
Unknown Speaker
yeah, yeah, yeah, no, thank you.
Brendan Torazzi
How long have you been involved with work options for?
Unknown Speaker
We're in our 22nd year?
Brendan Torazzi
Wow. Okay. Yeah. And so how did you? How did what does work options do? I probably should start with that.
Unknown Speaker
We're workforce health provider. So we work with employers and in the personal injury scheme space. And we do a range of services that help prevent injuries, and then manage them once they occurred. So in the personal injury space that's around things like rehab for injured workers. In the prevention side of it, it's anything from mental health programmes and play counselling. We do pre employment, fitness for work assessments we do on site workplace drug testing, and then a few other little bits and pieces along the way.
Brendan Torazzi
So it has it over the last 22 years, has it changed much? Or is it fundamentally the same sort of thing? Like, I don't know, people get injured at work? And then they need help getting back to work?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, good question. Actually. I always say there's a seven year cycle in on the personal injury scheme of things change up to seven years, and they try new things. And then invariably, it cycles back pretty much to how it was before. And fundamentally, it hasn't changed a lot. Yeah, 1998 was really when the key changes came into the scheme. board in the Injury Management Act. But really, you know, people, safety has improved. Yeah, but people still get injured. And they still need help going back to work.
Brendan Torazzi
Because because there's been a big change with a regulator. I don't know a huge amount about the space. But understand i is at IKEA that I can't take taken over now away from private providers is that?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Which, you know, questionable whether it's part of this, you know, one of those seven year cycles, right. But yeah, so in the past, you had WorkCover. Yep. And then Safe Work. New South Wales. Yeah. And then, and then you have, you have the regulator, which is Sarah, the state insurance regulatory authority. So they've all I guess I care sort of assumed work cover, and they split off the two. So before the regulator was part of WorkCover, they were the scheme manager and the regulator. And that's now been separated out. So we're actually accredited as a rehab provider by Sarah, but I care are the nominal insurer and run the New South Wales workers comp scheme. And then under them, insurance companies who the the relationship changes over time, but effectively, they they administer claims on behalf of IKEA.
Brendan Torazzi
So I'm guessing the like the fiddling around with the regulations, or got to do with trying to save money for both employers and insurance. Is that would that be a fair assessment?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I think so. And I think I'd add to that the improving the experience and benefits for injured workers as well.
Brendan Torazzi
Yeah, yeah. How expensive is it for employers when someone gets injured, if you've got any stats around?
Unknown Speaker
It depends on on what type of employee you are. So if you're a smaller employer, and that definition changes over time, but fundamentally, if your premium is under 30k, then your claims experience doesn't impact on your premium that's covered by the scheme effectively. So if you're a larger employer, and your premium is over, then it's like any insurance policy, if you have a claim, this the cost and security of that claim, and the number of claims you have will will impact on how much premium goes up, and it'll look at what type of business you are. I think one of the big changes in recent years is how in the past it went really just on your, your, what's called a week code your your risk level of risk. Yeah, now it's, it's it is that but it's really looking at how you in, in that category perform against your peers in that, you know, the other employers, so they'll look at a liberal performing better, and you you effectively rewarded for that you'd be performing worse, and you're going to have an even harder impact on the premium.
Brendan Torazzi
If so NAPLAN of workplace safety I'm getting it now I'm getting it.
Unknown Speaker
So yeah, well, I guess it didn't it, you know, incentivizes employers to work harder to, to manage claims better.
Brendan Torazzi
Yeah. So that 30k premium that you mentioned, what, like, what sort of how many staff would that equate to? Is it 50? Or?
Unknown Speaker
Well, look, that can depend, because that's where that that risk comes in. You can be you can have quite a number of staff, but you're in a very, very low risk category. So go over.
Brendan Torazzi
Yeah. Whereas if you're sort of in construction, it's obviously it's going to be like or manufacturing or might be much higher. Yeah. Yeah, correct. So 22 years is a fair. You know, stint doing? Is it a family business or you? It's all yours? What's your work options?
Unknown Speaker
No, I It's, I'm a sole director. Yep. So it's, it's just me. My husband did work in the business for a little while, a few years back, but he has he's got his own thing he does. He is gonna be doing a full time job. So yeah, it's it's, it's just me, I actually did buy it off of someone. I think it was, there was only about 18 months old when I bought it. So it's very much in its infancy. Oh, wow. Okay, that's really just bought the licence? Yeah,
Brendan Torazzi
I see. So you needed to be accredited, obviously, to be clear when you have provider and then yeah, yeah. So is that a little bit like owning an RTL it's quite a rigorous process to get approved as shortcut your, your time to get licenced, by buying a pre existing one?
Unknown Speaker
I did. I mean, it's, it's not hugely rigorous. Although it's just changed. There's a new framework that's been put out by Sarah, now, and every single provider, including us has to go through a re accreditation process that's happening by one November, so we're all madly getting our accreditation in but, you know, it's really about having the right systems in place. The right staff, only certain qualifications can do certain services within the industry. So yeah, governance, etc.
Brendan Torazzi
So if I was asked you, on average, how many how many people? Are you helping per annum? Like, get back to work? And is that a is that a metric? That you you would, because I'm kind of looking at you as a, it's almost like it, there's a social impact side of the business as well, where you you're, you know, you're not only helping employers, but you, you're helping the people that have genuinely been hurt at work? Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
And ultimately, their lives, really. So. That's right. That's right. And ultimately, that's, that's what we're all here for is actually helping the injured worker. Sometimes that gets a little lost in, you know, the scheme and the politics and commercial aspect. But it is possible to have a commercial business, but also be helping people get their life back. Yeah. So but in terms of looking at, dependents, there are providers of all different sizes, there's, you know, one person bands to, you know, national organisation to have several 100 employees across Australia. So I'm not actually sure the number of claims per year, but it's, I mean, there are a lot of claims that don't ever come to a rehab provider, right, they don't need it, where we get involved is really where it's either a complex injury, or the employer needs assistance with helping identify what duties a person can do going back, or if it's likely to be a prolonged recovery. So while they can't go back to their job altogether, and they need assistance, finding a new job,
Brendan Torazzi
every one of these, I guess, people or incidents so they all get, like, I'm gonna say investigated, although that's got maybe a negative connotation, but they have to get checked to make sure that they're genuine comment, or reserved a genuine presumption that these are all real one and
Unknown Speaker
get a great question when then and then the old, old, sort of 10 years ago, I would say, yeah, a lot, a lot did, but there was a big change in the scheme, where they bought in what's called provisional liability, and they bought it and on the basis that, that even those claims that were disputed and investigated 98% of claims were accepted anyway. Yeah. So now they they, in most cases, they will publish generally accept a claim. And sometimes it's a technical term, but it allows them to start paying some wages, which allows them to start paying medical bills and treatment. So they get some physio and etc. So in the old scheme, they would sometimes Wait, you know, 12 weeks before they'd get an approval on that claim. And then in that time, they're not receiving any treatment. So that really took away that that real angst that existed in the scheme. Yeah, so I would say, Yeah, I think the majority of claims don't get investigated. And they're pretty straightforward. I mean, really, unless, unless someone raises a concern that there was no witness and they believed the person maybe did it on the weekend, then they will largely still provisionally accept the claim. But they might do that for a period of time, while they gather more information.
Brendan Torazzi
Yeah, yeah, that's right. It's a bit like I guess paying your tax bills, right, you put in its you put in you do it in good faith, but then you need to but need to be prepared that if if the, you know, the taxman came knocking, that you can you can prove everything that you've cited to be true? Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. And really, if you think about it, if you if you create a scheme where, you know, people have to prove their disability, their injury all the time, then you know, that's not really a scheme that's based on helping people and achieving social outcomes. Is it so Exactly. In credit to the regulators and to IKEA, they've come a long way in that regard. And and I don't believe that that's, that's their key focus?
Brendan Torazzi
Well, it would have been pretty simple maths, really, like if 98% of the claims are genuine, and 2% are over time, then you just have to work out what's the cost of investing, investigating everything, and I guarantee it's gonna be more than 2%. So
Unknown Speaker
yeah, and what you find is that it's not just that you're quite right. And it's not just the ones that you end up proving that weren't genuine, it's then the cost that goes with that. It's all the other people that are waiting. And when you have someone sitting off work for 12 plus weeks, because they haven't been able to get treatment and get assistance. There's lots of data that shows that the longer person is off work, the less likely they are to actually get back to work. Yeah, so that early intervention piece gets missed. And that's what's really critical.
Brendan Torazzi
Yeah, yeah. And so do you find that it's the same types of clients coming back to you year after year, like 22 years is like a really well established business? Is it the same client? So you you get by how do you find out there? Yeah, like for work options? How do you how do you get new customers? Is it referral? Yeah,
Unknown Speaker
it's combination. So over the years, there's sometimes there's what's called provider panels, which invariably put out by the insurance, they largely have been removed now. So but you can still establish so we get referrals from either insurance companies who are acting for icap or directly from Ikea, they also manage claims. But also employers can choose to establish a relationship with a provider and nominate them as their preferred provider. So often, you know, we'll get a lot of repeat work. We also have aligned with a couple of industries where we're the preferred provider for those industries. So waste is one and civil contracting is another so we get a lot of work that way. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I
Brendan Torazzi
guess in a way, hopefully, you don't want the same clients coming back too much, because that would probably indicate that something's wrong.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, you don't get many you don't get many repeat injured workers. Yeah. But you, you certainly get repeat employers? Yeah.
Brendan Torazzi
Yeah. Yeah. And there's that then an opportunity to go in and kind of look at their systems holistically and say, Well, why why are we getting these repeated? Injuries? Yeah. And what? What can we do to fix it?
Unknown Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. It is. And that's, you know, that's not funded by the scheme, typically. So that would be, you know, a commercial private commercial arrangement. But yeah, absolutely. It is. So it might be, it could be anything from looking at doing a task analysis looking at, you know, what's their workflow? What are the physical requirements of the jobs? How are they actually managing a claim when it actually happened? So they reporting it quickly, or they're getting assistance quickly. Sometimes we'll do things like put together a suitable duties register. So helping to imagine someone gets an injury. They send them straight to the doctor, but you've got a pre prepared document, which shows all the different physical requirements of all the different jobs and You can immediately say to that doctor, look, this job is not suitable based on this injury. But we've got these range of options here. Can you certify the person if this, if they fit, can they do that. And so you can actually get someone back to work really quickly, you're doing something like that, rather than waiting three, four or five weeks for it to get referred for rehab and assessment being done and etc.
Brendan Torazzi
So this is probably a good segue into the new business angle or product that you've come up with. We've all been spending a lot of time at Home of Light. And it's October 21. Now we're in Sydney, at least we're looking at, you know, large amounts of the workforces going back to physically going back to their workplaces. What's, what's been the surprise thing that's come up for work options?
Unknown Speaker
Well, for us, it's been the rapid antigen testing, or COVID. Testing. So one of the other areas of our business on the prevention side is, is workplace drug and alcohol testing. And as with the first lockdown, and this lockdown, a lot of employers put that on hold. But we got a lot of queries coming through around, can we come out and do PCR testing and rapid testing? So we started doing that, because we had a drug testing crew already, we had systems in place already. We're used to going out onto sites and, you know, setting up testing clinics, I guess we want to call it on site. So it was, you know, pretty natural, sideway step, I guess for us to do that. But it's been it's been a really interesting ride. We started doing the PCR when when rapid came in. In fact, we were, you know, probably one of the earliest to with a couple of our customers to adopt it, even before health came out with it. And yeah, started doing it. We're still doing it now.
Brendan Torazzi
The rapid testing, is that an Australian product? Or is it from overseas?
Unknown Speaker
There's, there's all different ones. A lot of them come from overseas. Yeah. But but the TGA have a list of approved products. Yeah. And then you can only go through certain suppliers or their distributors.
Brendan Torazzi
Yeah. So Oh, sorry. You kept going. I was just gonna say this.
Unknown Speaker
There's restrictions on on, you know, who can supply those test kits, and who they can be supplied to? Yeah, well,
Brendan Torazzi
do you think that they're going? Because I mean, there's been talk in the media about people being able to do it at home? Do you think that that's something that will come into place? That would mean, that would mean actually trusting individuals, which I'm not sure with? Whether the government have an appetite for that or not?
Unknown Speaker
It's the $64 million question, isn't it? If you look overseas, it's been happening for a long time.
Brendan Torazzi
You mean, you're you are allowed to do a test at home?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, self testing. Overseas, it's been happening a long time. You know, if you want to go into a restaurant, sometimes you you know, the restaurant may require you to do a rapid test beforehand. So it's interesting, I've been asked this question a lot. I don't know the answer. And I don't know that it really does. Sometimes it comes out. I mean, the government has indicated they, they are going to, to allow self testing. But in what capacity, and you know, how that will play out. That's the unknown at the moment, I have my doubts whether it'll be a recommended tool in a workplace setting. And I think you nail on the head when you when you said about trust. And it's not necessarily that every employee, you know, wise do the right thing. Yeah. But it's also trusting that they can use the equipment properly, that they can interpret the results. And, you know, if they do get a positive result, you are relying on that person to declare that and if their job is on the line, or they have to isolate at home for 10 days and not get paid. That's a big risk. You're shifting your risk as an employer, completely into the hands of that employee. And they may not be a permanent employee that you've known, they could be a subcontractor that could be a casual worker that that works for you, for you from time to time. So personally, I think it's a big, big risk and you know, like you I work in risk, and my recommendation is you need to do a risk based assessment. You want to do that.
Brendan Torazzi
You might save some money in the testing and then it costs you in a liability and unintended liability. Like that. So So I'm curious, walk us through so the the customers that are doing rapid testing now can you give us a example like without you don't have to name any names, but just, I'm just curious to see what's the reasoning behind or the, you know, the driver, why they're, they're doing rapid testing.
Unknown Speaker
We do a lot in construction and waste. That'd be our two main areas. There's, there's really two motivators. One is where the public health order has been requiring requiring them to do originally PCR testing. And then it came in to say that rapid tests could be used in place of a PCR.
Brendan Torazzi
So I'm taking PCR is the up the nostril?
Unknown Speaker
Yes, yeah. Well, they both actually up the nostril. Yeah, the differences? Sorry, I probably should have explained this. The PCR is the typical one that when you go to a COVID testing clinic, yeah, yeah, it goes up notes, and it goes to a lab and in the lab will put it through an analysis and it's the gold standard. Right? The rapid is an onsite test. So you'd still take the the swab Up the nose, you put it in a solution, and then it goes on to a device and it'd be like a pregnancy test. It comes out, you know, one line, you're not pregnant, two lines, you're pregnant. In this case, you have a positive,
Brendan Torazzi
feel uncomfortable?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, yeah, there are saliva ones out there. We've just started trialling a new saliva product, which the person puts in their mouth and sort of self administered, but we still read it and put it through the solution. Yeah. So you're going back to your question. The second reason is, is risk. And what I've found is that if you're an employer who takes that risk, pretty serious, and you know, the repercussions, you were already doing it from the beginning. And the the cost was something that you're willing to do. Yeah, and those employers have were early adopters, and have really stayed the course and are still testing. There were some that that came in because they had to, but as soon as that went, they stopped. Yeah, a couple came back after they had some positive cases, at the workplace. That yeah, it so to me, it's not a replacement of the gold standard of PCI, it's an additional tool to to help minimise your risk is picking up asymptomatic people. Where, you know, obviously, if you've got to, you know, we all know, if you've got a cough and a sniff, you go get a test done. Whereas this is picking up people who don't have symptoms, you know, in that acute phase, you do it about a week before. symptoms.
Brendan Torazzi
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's really a simple math equation for businesses that the cost of having someone doing the rapid testing versus the cost of your business shutting down for, you know, five to 14 days, because you've had a positive. Yeah, positive test case. So, yeah, if the cost of testing is far less than it's probably, you know, worth doing. Really.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. And that's where that that, you know, risk assessment really comes into it. There are other ways that obviously an employer can can manage that risk. It's not just testing. And, you know, we've seen a lot of employers doing that through, you know, through A, B, and C, and your breakout shifts, having different work zones and things like that to help stop the shutdown piece.
Brendan Torazzi
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it is going to be interesting to see what you know, we're almost at that 80% level. But I think I feel there's still quite a bit of caution in the community and business community as to what it looks like having people come back to the workplace. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. And you think about it, even if we get to 90%. That's still 10% of people out there that that aren't aren't vaccinated and are going to be at higher risk. Yeah. I don't need to go through through that side of it. But that's still, you know, they are going to be at higher risk of catching it and, and transmitting it within your workplace. So, you know, there's still no guarantee that you're not going to have it come into your workplace. Yeah.
Brendan Torazzi
And so what does the future look like for work options? You've been going for 22 years. What what are the what are the future plans?
Unknown Speaker
Oh, gosh, that's a big question. A lot of the same, I guess. You know, the drug testing is starting to ramp back up now as far as you know, the, the freedoms and we'll start opening back up again. But yeah, look, we're Yeah, we we plan to continue doing the rehab team doing the the injury prevention side of things. We are about to launch a new employee counselling platform soon. Yep. So maybe that's another conversation down the track. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Lots of lots of the same but but you know, always Floros looking at how we can do things better and improve things and how technology can make us more efficient and help our customers more as well.
Brendan Torazzi
Yeah. So it sounds like you clearly enjoy what you're doing and keep going.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I would hope so after 22 veteran a little crazy, but
Brendan Torazzi
yeah, yeah. I think there must be a sense of satisfaction there to be able to, you know, make that positive impact and, and help people.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I really love the employer piece. I love working with employers and, you know, looking at how we can help them improve their safety and their performance as well. That's, that's my passion.
Brendan Torazzi
That's brilliant. Okay, Campbell, thank you very much for coming on the show today. If people want to find out a little bit more about work options. What's your website?
Unknown Speaker
It's pretty simple. www dot work. options.com.au.
Brendan Torazzi
Fantastic. Okay, Karen. All right. Thanks again.
Unknown Speaker
Thanks for having me.
Unknown Speaker
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Brendan Torazzi
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